Scott Stanford:

Hi everybody. Welcome to The Infrastructors, the premier podcast for engaging conversation with influential thought leaders in AI, tech, government policy and Smart City innovation. Today's guest is the former Baltimore mayor candidate and Anne Arundel County Police Commander, T.J. Smith.

So, T.J., thanks for hanging out, man. Listen, first of all, before we get into the crux of our conversation, what got you interested in law enforcement? Was it something you wanted to do since an early age?

T.J. Smith:

That's a question I get often and no, it wasn't a lifelong dream. It wasn't playing cops and robbers and “I can't wait to be a cop.” I just happened to do it. Ironically enough, I worked at a department store doing security and ultimately, I put in application to be a police officer, but it was more of a thing of service. My mom is a retired Baltimore City school teacher. My grandparents both worked at the main post office in Baltimore City. Again, it was always service oriented.

Scott Stanford:

And you’re also a former mayoral candidate for the City of Baltimore. What made you want to run for office there?

T.J. Smith:

I think I lost my mind. I think I lost my mind for a period of time. No, once again, an opportunity for service. I looked at the city at that point in time, we had gone through corruption again, with a mayor who had been removed because of what had gone on with her at the point at that time. Just the violence was out of control. I lost my brother to the violence on the streets during my tenure as a spokesperson with the Baltimore Police Department. But I felt like it was a need for some outside thinking. And I had a collection of experiences from being a blue-collar worker to being in the white collar world as an executive and Command in the Police Department, Executive in government as well. So, I thought that I could offer something from a different perspective, having worked in three large jurisdictions at that point.

Scott Stanford:

The reason we're here today is to talk about technology, traffic stops, police interactions with people where they don't necessarily have to be, recent officer involved shootings, following those traffic stops that have resurfaced, discussions on whether contactless and restricted policing for those minor motor vehicle violations could provide more alternatives for law enforcement. What's your take on this?

To me, if we can get this thing in order like they have in Philadelphia, it almost seems like the technology adds to the police force. You have a bigger police force with less manpower, but more of a force with the technology.

T.J. Smith:

Well, I'll say it's music to my ears because when I saw what happened in Philadelphia, when they essentially, I don't want to use the word decriminalized, but banned stops for small violations-

Scott Stanford:

The Driver Equality Law.

T.J. Smith:

Yes. The Driver Equality Law. But then when I saw that they were going to use technology still to hold people accountable I said, "Well, that makes nothing but sense", because I've long said, why are police used as arms of the insurance companies, arms of the motor vehicle administration, et cetera? Why can't we create a law where the meter maids are able to write that ticket for the bad tags on the parked vehicle? When I saw that there's technology that could be used to not even have contact and even give people a little bit more warning, because it could be a paperwork error to make sure, "Hey, we're going to get this letter to you to let you know that your car was moving, and you don't have insurance according to our records. Now you come and prove it before you get arrested". And in the State of Maryland, that's a must appear violation where an officer can arrest you and take you to jail for driving a car without insurance. Is that really necessary, especially with human error?

Scott Stanford:

And I was reading about the Driver Equality Law. Philadelphia was the first city to enact this law. And to me it seems like a no brainer. I also read that it would cut down around 300,000 police incidents for these vehicle stops, which of course cuts down the opportunity for things to escalate further just as they happen. It’s human error. How long before we see cities like New York, LA, and Chicago? Do you feel everybody's going to follow suit with this Driver Equality Law?

T.J. Smith:

I think eventually. And I think what some of the cities have to do is not wait until a tragedy occurs. Don't react to something. And I know that there are going to be opponents of it saying, "Well, we use those as investigative tools to stop people, to probe people because a crime just occurred." You look at something like Timothy McVeigh and some other serial killers, for instance, that were stopped on a traffic violation. Well, there are other ways that those people will get caught. We have to get back to some basic police detective work. So hopefully cities don't allow some of those narratives to take hold and be the decision maker for them. And don't wait until a tragedy happens and now, you're reacting and trying to do something different. I think what Philly's doing is when you first hear about it, if you're similar to me, you're like, "Oh my gosh, really"? But then when you see they actually did something that still holds the people accountable. We can still hold the people accountable but we're just doing it a different way. It makes nothing but sense.

Scott Stanford:

Yeah. And as a guy who lives and drives through New York a lot, if you go through the red light, they've got the cameras and a month later, you get that picture of you and your car going through. And you're like, "Okay, you got me". And you either pay your fine or you plead not guilty. It just seems like just such a practical way for a police force, and I think for the police officers. We take a lot of pressure off those guys. If you're a police officer and you're walking up to that car because you pulled off for a taillight broken, I've never been in that position, but I assume in their mind with all the things that happen today, there's got to be that thought in the back of your mind, "Man oh man. I hope this person isn't"-

T.J. Smith:

You have no idea what you're encountering. One of my field training officers said, "What's the most dangerous call you can go on?" And when I ask people that question, they'll go down the list. They'll say domestic, they'll say a traffic stop or whatever. And his answer was always “the next one.” You never know.

Scott Stanford:

You never know.

T.J. Smith:

You really never know because could that person have just done something that everyone is unaware of, and they think you know? So again, when you cut down on these moments, it doesn't mean you're not going to be able to go out there and investigate a crime and use other things. You’re still able to do it, but the profession isn't going to grow. The applications aren't billowing over to be police officers in America. So, what way can we still keep the community safe and hold people accountable? Because there are things you have to do like have insurance, make sure your tints not too dark, make sure your registration's up to date. Without having as much face-to-face interaction that could result in a language barrier that turns into a wrestling match and turns into a shooting for no reason.

Scott Stanford:

What I love is, the folks at Rekor have a deal with public safety in Oklahoma, where you have the cameras all over the place and it reads the license plates. And if your insurance isn't up to date, your registration, it doesn't know if the driver is Black, white, Latino, whatever it is. You are a guy who knows Baltimore better than anyone else and just the understaffing of police in big cities, I would just think that this technology gives the police officers an opportunity to focus on bigger problems.

T.J. Smith:

Right. And I would think that no matter where you're aligned politically, whether it's on the conservative side or the progressive side, or somewhere in between, you're touching a lot of pieces there where we're holding people accountable for their actions. We are limiting the interactions. And it's not discriminating. It's not this thing that's seeing if this person looks a certain way before we levy a ticket, or what have you, similar to a red-light camera or a speed camera. So, the more you use technology, and I think one of the bigger things for a lot of people is proper oversight to ensure information's not being misused.

Scott Stanford:

Back to the Philadelphia driver equality again for a second. I know in New York, issues with different mayors that have been in office, it's always “Do we bring back random traffic stops?” And this basically is wiping that all out. Again, as a guy who was on the forefront of all this stuff, is it something that when you were chasing down bad guys, is it something that you would've liked to have seen back when you were on the force?

T.J. Smith:

Well, I was able to watch as computers came in. Then as a supervisor, I never got the luxury of having an e-ticket machine where you just scan the driver's license and it spit out the warning or the tickets-

Scott Stanford:

Those are in the cars.

T.J. Smith:

In the cars. So as technology improved, it made the job much more simplistic. It freed up your time. It gave you more discretion and it gave you more tools to actually confirm if somebody was telling you the truth or not, where you could do a bit more research in a quicker amount of time. So again, anything that is going to, one, keep me safer first of all, and two, allow us to still hold people accountable and maybe do it in a quicker way. And from my government side, we could do it in a quicker, safer way, and hold people accountable in a cost-effective way. Sign me up.

So as we have these conversations, we just have to make sure that we are reminding people of all the boxes to check, because I just want to be honest, the Philadelphia situation when I first heard about it, I thought it was a little ridiculous, but my thing has always been no different than here in Baltimore when we talk about certain crimes, certain low level crimes, the infrastructure there to divert people to something else. If you're not going to prosecute low-level thefts, is the infrastructure there to get them help, get them treated, whatever it is? If it's not, then they're going to do the same thing again. But if the infrastructure's there for those people who are driving without insurance and now, we can do something about it, then that makes sense.

Scott Stanford:

On the opposite side of that technology spectrum, and I hate to date myself, but what was it? 1979. David Burkowitz, the Son of Sam killer in New York got caught because of a parking ticket. So, I guess if you had that technology back then, that parking ticket may not have led to his arrest.

T.J. Smith:

Back to what I was saying about Timothy McVeigh and the son of Sam situation. It was the parking ticket. If it wasn’t the parking ticket, it would've been something else. And we have to get it out of our mind that for every one of those situations, how many bad ones occur. And how often are we talking about a Son of Sam or Timothy McVeigh being caught on a traffic stop. Ted Bundy. How often are we having those conversations versus how often are we talking about, and we don't even have to go as far as an officer killing somebody, an officer getting in a fight with somebody and injuring themselves being out on disability for X amount of time as a result. If you injure your gun hand, you are done for a while until you're back together.

Scott Stanford:

Back to the Oklahoma and Rekor situation: how much of racial divide and racial disparities could we get rid of rebuild communities a little bit where you don't have, because it seems like the divide between police officers and residents of a community often just come from these regular traffic stops. If somebody thinks they're getting pulled over, even if it's someone who has done something and they get pulled over for a taillight, and they think it's for something else, maybe they're reaching for a gun in the glove compartment. So, to me, it just seems like a no brainer moving forward to bring communities back together. That divide right now that we have, especially over the last two, three years between police and communities.

T.J. Smith:

Yeah. There is a myriad of opportunities here. And from the government side, if you have an unbiased piece of equipment that is feeding you data, now you can package that into some sort of education initiative. If the stats are staying similar as to when the human element was involved, we know we need to inform this community that there is a higher rate of driving without insurance, driving on expired tags, et cetera, to educate the community. Or is it a transportation gap? Again, you go down a list of things. Is MVA too far from the communities that are having the biggest problems? And is it a cost thing? I know a lot of these might sound like excuses, but they could be real things. They could be real problems.

So, I think you could glean information beyond what your first thought is, which is simply we “Can we have a contactless stop?” This is not about taking people out of jobs but look at the efficiency that you have seen in some retailers now where you are having contactless payment. Where you are not even having to slide your credit card anymore, you just tap-

Scott Stanford:

Tapping.

T.J. Smith:

Or use your phone.

Scott Stanford:

I love the tapping.

T.J. Smith:

We should be progressing in the world of law enforcement, no different than the world is progressing around us in different ways.

Scott Stanford:

In your experience in law enforcement, do the people on the other side appreciate the transparency from law enforcement during these stops?

T.J. Smith:

Anytime you're introducing new technology, transparency is paramount. I unfortunately was with the Baltimore police department when a piece of technology was unveiled as a surprise. Surprise to me and a surprise to the community. The problem wasn’t the technology and how great it works. It became the lack of transparency. So, people feel better when they understand what they're getting into on the front end. And some things aren't meant to be covert. We want people to know we have some of the best technology out there. Some of our casinos in the state of Maryland years ago, when they first opened the technology was so great.

And I remember some robbery suspects would come in and test them early and often. And we were catching every single one.

Scott Stanford:

Everybody.

T.J. Smith:

Everyone was getting caught. And I told the casino, I know y'all don't like talking about this because you don't want people to think they're going to get robbed. However, it's a great deterrent to tell people, "Look at the technology we have. You come here to do this; you're going to get caught. And here's our success rate." So, I think as long as you're upfront and walking people through it, getting community buy in, it becomes a no brainer. That's just where we're going.

Scott Stanford:

As a former police commander, Baltimore PD spokesperson, and a lifelong resident of Baltimore, do you feel that there are any out-of-the-box ideas that you've come up with that you'd love to propose just to increase public safety in general?

T.J. Smith:

Well, you don't have enough time for that. That's why I ran for mayor. I'm all about being outside the box. I'm about trying things as well. Look, the fact that we can collect data and do it in a way that there's oversight and in a way that people's personal information is safe, but to hold people accountable and potentially have a major impact on public safety, again, I'm all for that. And people when they're victims of crime want to know where the cameras are. They want to know why. But I look at this high definition. Again, I did some security work back in the nineties, and I remember having the little eight-by-eight square television that was in black and white. And now we have 4K, 8K digital cameras that record so much.

And even as a spokesperson, in my role as a sworn police officer, I would tell people when I communicated, concentrate on a way this person walks, because they can't change it. Those are their mannerisms. So, we have so much more technology to show us these things, for instance, just that as an example. But again, to be able to zero in on certain areas with an unbiased piece of equipment is the way that we get better. And I talk about communities at large and every urban center really has these problems.

I think sometimes we're biting off a lot more than we can chew. And we focus on the macro, and we need to just close our eyes and think about the micro. What can we have an impact on? What is the most violent area? What is the most troubled area or community? What can our plan be there in order to make an impact? And how can we use technology to help make this community safer? I mean, we're doing it with doorbells. Now we can talk through the doorbell when we're not at home.

Scott Stanford:

The guy who invented the Ring by the way is very rich right now.

T.J. Smith:

And he should be because it makes a lot of sense.

Scott Stanford:

It's such a simple concept. It really is phenomenal.

T.J. Smith:

It's unbelievable.

Scott Stanford:

If people take packages off your porch, everybody gets caught by the Ring bell.

T.J. Smith:

As a spokesperson, I've been talking about the Grinch who stole Christmas. And we've caught them on Ring doorbells. Again, this technology exists, and people have this fear when you talk about it. They think it's this magic when you log into Facebook and it's like, "I was just looking at that.” Yes. Because you just clicked all permissions, and everything is communicating with one another. It's not magic. It's what you allowed. And it's all about making your life easier. So, as we make our life easier, how about we make our life safer as well with the use of technology?

Scott Stanford:

Absolutely. Who knows where we will be another three years from now. It's going so fast. We used to say "Oh, in 10 years we're going to..." Now it's by next week we're going to do this. And TJ, as a driver who has gotten those tickets in the mail, "Hey, you were going 45 in a 35". When you get pulled over in traffic, that's a half hour by the time the officer talks to you, goes back to the car, writes up the ticket. If I'm trying to beat that red light and I get caught and get a ticket, it's also saving me time. Not necessarily the money, and you got me on the camera.

T.J. Smith:

No argument there.

Scott Stanford:

No arguments.

T.J. Smith:

There are so many arguments on the side of the road with people who wanted to deny it. And this is back when we went from radar to using laser which is even better where you're pinpointing a specific vehicle and people still argued with you. But like you said, now it's, "You got me. I did it", basically. But I also say, when we talk about camera technology, the camera changes your behavior. Whether it's for the better or not, it changes your behavior. And one of the hardest things when teaching people media stuff is sitting there having a casual conversation and then you push play on the camera and buh, buh, buh. Say, "No, go back to the person I was talking to.”

With police and the body worn cameras, that suspect who's a complete jerk, Mayhem or whatever, when they know that they're on camera they might have a different attitude. And we saw it here in Baltimore with this gun trace task force, they're such criminals and it's such muscle memory, even with the cameras on, they're committing the crimes. So, you get so much more as we embrace technology. You can correct behavior. You can capture behavior and we should be embracing it because we're already using most of this now. And we're trying to find the next best thing. We have refrigerators that can order your food after your milk is out. I mean, come on.

Scott Stanford:

It's the Jetsons. We're living in the Jetsons.

T.J. Smith:

Finally. I just can't get through rush hour traffic yet.

Scott Stanford:

Before we go, and I do want to hear about your podcast, how many times are you on a major highway and you see a police officer has somebody pulled over and they're standing outside the car where the cars are zipping by? It's 70, and just for the police officer's safety. I remember my dad always used to tell me, "Son, you see why that officer has his wheels turned this way. Because if somebody smacks into that officer, it's going to send his car a different direction than the person who he pulled over." So, it just seems safer and like such a better situation.

T.J. Smith:

Safety first.

Scott Stanford:

Safety first.

T.J. Smith:

Safety for the community. Safety for the officers. And that's less liability, less money for everybody.

Scott Stanford:

“Hey man, we checked your registration." I just think it's a no brainer. I hope to see other major cities follow suit on the Philadelphia Driver Equality law.

T.J. Smith:

And moreover, they can actually package it. They can actually package it a lot better because Philly piecemealed it. They did this first and then went to the technology and you didn't hear as much about the technology on the front end. Other cities can have the conversation at the same time. We're going away from it. And again, I don't know how many different political spectrums can be totally opposed to it. You're going to have naysayers because that's what people do. They just look for comments to troll on. But the majority of people are going to be like, "Sign me up. That makes nothing but sense.” But the safety of the officers and the people, that's the most dangerous thing.

Scott Stanford:

Absolutely. You have a very popular podcast. WMAR in Baltimore. Tell me about that. Where can people... How often can they get it? What do you guys usually talk about on the podcast?

T.J. Smith:

So www.wmar2news.com is where to go to get the podcast. I call it the good, the bad, the ugly. I like to call balls and strikes in Baltimore. We have our problems, but we have our beauty. So, we talk about the crime, of course, but also about fishing around the Baltimore Inner Harbor, food. And more recently with the election this summer, we talked about the election with some of the candidates and WMAR 2 News. And we try to just talk about local issues and do more than just complain. We want to have ideas of how to solve some of the problems like this.

Scott Stanford:

And I've seen videos of you fishing by the way.

T.J. Smith:

Oh, I love it.

Scott Stanford:

You love it.

T.J. Smith:

Yeah. I can't wait. I was at one of my fishing holes recently and I didn't take my fishing rods. I just went to hang out and just get some vitamin D. And so many people were fishing and I'm sitting there looking like I have to always keep my rods in my car-

Scott Stanford:

Got to get in there.

T.J. Smith:

So, I have to bring them back. I can't wait.

Scott Stanford:

I love it. T.J. Smith. Thank you, my friend.

T.J. Smith:

Thank you very much.

Scott Stanford:

Pleasure. I appreciate the conversation.

That's all the time we have today on The Infrastructors. Join us next time for our conversation with the President of the Howard Hughes Corporation, Greg Fitchitt.