Scott Stanford:

Hi, everybody, welcome to "The Infrastructors", the premier podcast for engaging conversations with influential thought leaders in AI, tech, government policy, and smart city innovation. Today's guest, the Director of Surveillance for the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe, the one and only Tony Clark. All right, Tony Clark, good to see you, my friend. Thanks for spending a few minutes with us today.

Tony Clark:

Not a problem, thanks for the invite.

Scott Stanford:

Tony, I have to ask you first, before we get into the specifics about what you do and where you are, I have to assume, based on all of the hotel casino surveillance movies that I've seen, your job's gotta be pretty cool, no? Is it anything like we see in the movies, or nothing at all?

Tony Clark:

They fantasize quite a bit, but there are days where it does seem to be just like it is in the movies, you have your advantage players, especially "21," the MIT crew, that's one of my all-time favorites.

Scott Stanford:

Yes, yes.

Tony Clark:

"Ocean's 11," I don't know, about that one. I mean, maybe someday, eventually, but the tech gets better so the thieves don't get smarter.

Scott Stanford:

Yeah, no, I know, and of course, you know, one of my favorites, you know, with Ace Rothstein, and Don Rickles as Billy Sherbert, are, you know, standing there in the casino and they're watching the guy tap his leg to the other guy, and, you know, things happen in the back. I have to assume, with technology, it's a little easier to catch people, you know, who are doing things that they shouldn't be doing, no?

Tony Clark:

Well, the other thing you have to look at is not only do we have the technology, but they are actually devising and coming up with technology themselves.

Scott Stanford:

It's amazing, man. Well, no, it definitely sounds like a cool job to have, and listen, let's start off, you know, if you can, just, you know, share with us some background about the Saginaw Chippewa tribe. You guys are in Michigan. Which casinos do you guys operate?

Tony Clark:

Oh, we actually operate Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort in Mount Pleasant, Michigan, we have Saganing Eagles Landing and Hotel, which is in Standish, Michigan, area, about 72 miles northeast of Mount Pleasant, and we also have got a Slot Palace straight across the road from the big resort that we have.

Scott Stanford:

Beautiful, and as the director of surveillance for these places, you know, what are the key objectives and the priorities of the surveillance department under your leadership? I mean, what are you guys mainly there for? Better gaming experience, for the customer's protection, to catch people who might be, you know, cheating at what they're doing, or a little of all the above.

Tony Clark:

Oh, kind of all the above. Our number one thing is to protect our assets, which is anything from financials, to employees, to our patrons, I mean, because without any of them, we have no assets.

Scott Stanford:

Gotcha, and I know the Federal Indian Gaming Regulatory Act permits tribes, like we were saying, you know, to have casinos no different, maybe, than Vegas or Atlantic City. What are the primary benefits to an Indian tribe as, you know, what do they derive from operating casinos on those lands, you know, both in terms of economic development and really, cultural preservation?

Tony Clark:

Well, I mean, you just said it. A lot of it is economical development, you know, it allows them to, you know, take care of their self, take care of themselves as a sovereign nation, and as far as the history and, you know, preservation, it allows them to create, like, we have medical programs, and we have college programs, and everything that have been derived from the economy that we create within the casinos.

Scott Stanford:

Gotcha, and I noticed, recently you won, I don't know if it was recently or a couple of years ago, a Pioneer award for using modern LAN technology, you know, the initials L-A-N. What does that actually stand for, and how did you enhance the ability to use it, and create, you know, more technologically advanced programs?

Tony Clark:

So what it is is it's basically network access ability. A lot of times, you look at Cat6Plus, Cat5, just like your normal cord that you would hook up for your network system on your computer. Well, when they originally built our casino, everything was integrated with BNC and coaxial, so I reached out and researched some companies that were doing some long-range digital conversions from coaxial, which would've been analog at the time, being coaxial, because it's just copper line, to digital platforms. So I reached out to a company, Phybridge, in Toronto, Canada, it's a military-based company, and reached out to them and contacted them, and we were actually the first casino to utilize... Without having to change our complete infrastructure, we were allowed to use the same cabling that we established back in this property in 1998, and not only did it allow us to introduce digital systems, digital cameras, and that type of thing, but it actually gave us longer range than what you could get on a standard Cat6 switch.

Scott Stanford:

Gotcha, and I know you guys, I saw you talking recently about working with the folks at Rekor and using their technology to basically, you know, read plates and folks who are pulling in, and you guys kinda know who's coming in, or you know, repeat customers, new customers on their way in. How does that actually help, in your experience, with you guys, and help the customer experience as well?

Tony Clark:

Well, what it does is you get to know who your better players are, who your regular players are. That gives us the ability to be the first ones there once they pull in the property, and we're able to recognize their vehicle, their license plate, when it pops up, we can have our hosts there, we can have everybody there that we need, because what we're doing is, we wanna cater to these individuals, specially if they're repeat customers or good customers, so what we are able to do is basically, you know, pardon the pun, but kiss ass prior to them actually getting through the door.

Scott Stanford:

I like the phrasing. So if you could share any success stories or really notable instances where the use of surveillance technology really significantly contributed, really, to an overall satisfaction and safety of a casino's guest. So are there one or two instances that you could think back on that really stand out to you?

Tony Clark:

See, for us, there'd be multiples, 'cause one of the biggest things that surveillance actually does, everyone thinks that we looked at the gaming aspect of it, but most of the time, we're actually working with your liability department, as well. One of the big things that I do is crisis management, or crisis mitigation and management, so we look into the liability aspect to see how much we lose on law cases or insurance cases, fraudulent slip, trips, falls, anything of that nature.

Scott Stanford:

Sure.

Tony Clark:

So that alone... Like I said, you can go through several different examples, like the person that walks by the spot that was wet in the front foyer area, for, you know, a little bit of time, but they'll walk past it four or five times, so what you have to do is you have to look for these patterns overall, so overall, I mean, yes, we do protect the assets of the company as far as the gaming, we like to look for the cheats, we like to look for the slot scammers, we like to, you know, watch our big players come in and spend money, and hopefully, we get to take it from them. Some days, they take it from us, so, but no, the majority of what we do is more to the liability aspect, as well, you know, making sure we know where our, excuse me, floor crews are, so that way, we can predetermine what we're gonna set up for our audits for the day.

Scott Stanford:

Yeah, no, Ace Rothstein, in "Casino," you know, he said if you keep them there long enough, the house always wins, right?

Tony Clark:

That's exactly right.

Scott Stanford:

And listen, you know, we goof around about these movies, right, and how they glorify it, but again, you know, and again like the "Ocean's 11" movies of the world, right, with George Clooney, you know, you got the eye in the sky, and you just mentioned it, but I'm sure, now, you know, nowadays, you guys have, you know, hundreds of cameras on each and every chair in that casino. The role of surveillance technology, really, just protecting the fairness and integrity of the table games and slot operations, you know, tell us how far that's come.

Tony Clark:

Oh, it's come to the point where you can integrate systems right into your surveillance system of the cards coming out of the shoes now. To mention some products that are out there, eConnectors actually has one that has a smart shoe, so as the cards are being dealt out, you can actually get the reading on your video of the cards coming out of the shoe, so you can keep track of it. So you can basically take a beginner who's coming into this industry, 'cause one of the things that we're looking into more now... Before it was you needed to know how to be a dealer, you needed to know how to count cards, you needed to know everything and anything there was about table games. Well, nowadays kids wanna know anything and everything there is about video, and that's the genre that we're getting into, that's the generation that we're actually looking into, now, to hire, because these video gamers are the ones that are, they have that mind, they have that quick eye set, so, like, you see any little nuances within a video screen, and they can automatically pick it up. I mean, how many "Call of Duty" people see something shoot over here, and they already picked it up, and spun around, and hit this guy four times. You know, I mean, I tried it, but the kids, I'm telling you, when you're getting your butt kicked by a 12-year-old it kinda ticks you off when you're 50.

Scott Stanford:

That's so fun. And do you use a little mix of the eye in the sky? Like, as the director of surveillance or some of the folks that work with you, can you walk around a casino and see if people are doing things that aren't exactly on the up and up, or is it mostly coming from overhead?

Tony Clark:

Oh, actually, we do both. I mean, if we suspect something is going on, we will actually go down to the floor, take a walk, take a look, you know, so we can get a different angle, because you have to have the different perspectives, especially if it's a case that you're gonna take somewhere, you wanna make sure you have more than one perspective, more than one angle. That's one of those things, one of my greatest mentors, Derk Boss, was the view of three; you wanna zoom in as close as you can with, you know, getting everything that's going on, you want a shot of the individual and what's going on with them, and then you wanna back it out so you can get everything surrounding, because this could just be a distraction to a larger event that's possible.

Scott Stanford:

Absolutely; Derk Boss, by the way, future guest here on this fine program.

Tony Clark:

Oh, perfect.

Scott Stanford:

Yeah . How do you guys stay updated on the emerging trends in technologies? Is there a, you know, conferences for hotel surveillance, you know, how do you guys stay ahead of the emerging trends?

Tony Clark:

One of the things we do is communication, overall communication, 'cause there's a lot of sales departments and there's a lot of, you know, people out there thinking that they have the new latest and greatest. Till you get your hands on it and start working with it, you really don't know what the actual true effect is on it. But communication, number one, you know, you have to have an open platform to speak with these other surveillance directors, and security professionals in general, not just surveillance in casinos, because what one company may have, universities, you know, hospitality departments, you know, retail, may be viable and utilized, and, you know, we'd be able to utilize the same thing. So basically, communication,

Scott Stanford:

That's amazing. Yeah.

Tony Clark:

Word of mouth, research, look it up. There's enough websites, Google, you know, Bing, whatever you wanna use, that you can find the latest and greatest coming out, because they will tell you right off the bat.

Scott Stanford:

Tony, are there any coming, you know, coming down the road, that you know of, that aren't even out yet, that are maybe game-changers, that we haven't heard about yet?

Tony Clark:

There's nothing recently that's come out, but there are some systems that are upgrading and becoming a lot larger platform, doing a little bit more. One of them that I use personally at our casino is Evolv technology that's a weapons detection system, and yes, I know there's multiple out there, I've tested them all, I've looked at them all. Evolv just became one of the friendliest ones to deal with, I mean, most user-friendly and easy, too.

Scott Stanford:

How did you get involved in this industry? Was this something you were always interested in growing up when you got to college, post-college? How'd you get involved in this?

Tony Clark:

Believe it or not, I think you don't choose this career, this career chooses you, whether, you know... The best way to put it is, I came in as a medic and was working with the municipalities department, and went into some table games, and I enjoyed it, just wasn't quite my forte to maintain. Then there was an opening, so I thought, "Why not? Let's give it a shot." So here I am, going on 26 years, 27 years, almost, later, and the director for the last 9 years of, you know, the ninth-largest casino in the US.

Scott Stanford:

Wow, that's a bit, sounds like you have a resume built for the FBI right now

Tony Clark:

The gaming's the most important part to me.

Scott Stanford:

No, it's great, And again, it sounds like, again, like I said at the beginning, it sounds like a very cool job title and the stuff you go through on a day-to-day basis. Can you share, you know, we're talking about all this enhanced technology, can you share an instance where the technology's been used to maybe quickly respond to an incident or emergency that's happened? I know we talked about, you know, you look at it for lawsuits, and you go back and look at footage, but is there something that happened in real time that helped you guys really, you know, respond quicker than you would have if you hadn't had that?

Tony Clark:

Well, we have a outdoor venue that seats 16,000 people, a concert venue, so with that, we utilize that Evolv weapons detection system, and I can tell you that on a regular basis, people don't realize how many firearms, weapons, or whatever are coming into their properties. I can't give a specific number, I can't give a specific, but I can tell you that because of the technologies that we have in place, there have been things that have been averted.

Scott Stanford:

That's amazing, and listen, you know, we were talking about Rekor and that AI technology earlier on, you know, how can you guys leverage that vehicle recognition technology really to streamline the entry and exit process for returning customers? And you may have mentioned it before, you know, providing that more seamless and convenient experience. Does it all come down to, again, like you mentioned, when the people come in, you know they're in, what is the importance of this customer, you know, is their manager there, you know, the minute they walk in, their hospitality manager? How do you guys streamline that experience?

Tony Clark:

Yeah, that's the biggest thing is when they come on site is to make sure that we have somebody up there to meet them, greet them. If they're a bigger player, we know how long they play, a lot of times they'll use their valet, they'll utilize their valet, and when they do, so we will take care of the vehicle and make sure it's in a more secured property area. I mean, all of our areas are secure, but maybe that we don't completely pull it underneath the valet area, we keep it out underneath our front foyer, just because of the fact that we know they're only gonna be here for two hours.

Scott Stanford:‍

Yeah, that vehicle recognition technology is just amazing. Can you utilize it further, even just to monitor and manage the parking areas effectively?

Tony Clark:

We work directly with law enforcement, so not only do we work on monitoring the parking areas with it, but it's also utilized in cases in regards to hit and runs. Once again, more liability cases than anything. Or if we know that there has been... Because of the open communication between a lot of the surveillance departments throughout the United States, you know, we'll usually get a name, a make, a vehicle, and a license plate number with any information that they email us, so we'll just throw that into our database, and if we get that license plate number come through our door, we'll know either to be ready to evict them prior to them walking in the door, so that way, they don't take anything from us, that way, they don't have a chance to hit us, or if it's, you know, other things, drug-related, whatever it may be, we can utilize that with law enforcement. And another thing is what to look out for, as well, with license plate recognition. Human trafficking is a very, very big, serious problem, not only with casinos but throughout the entire United States, and having that license plate recognition gives us that chance, especially, you know, 'cause you don't know what's gonna happen on a day-to-day basis.

Scott Stanford:

Wow, it's amazing, and, you know, when it comes to surveillance, obviously, you know, you walk into a casino, you see signs that say, you know, you are under surveillance, so they let you know, in a nice, clear, concise manner. How do you ensure compliance with relevant laws and regulations, and, you know, industry standards in your operations? 'Cause obviously, there are some, you know, again, regulations that you guys need to adhere to, right?

Tony Clark:

Oh, yeah, I mean, everybody has their boundaries and regulations that we have to adhere to. Biggest thing is is having a great crew. One of the things that we have to do is if we have a camera go down that's in a critical area, such as our gaming floor, somewhere, we have 24 hours to repair it without, you know, or replace it, communicate that with our commissioners, gaming commissioners, and let them know what's going on. Without that, we'd be in violation. So a lot of it is you have to have a good team, you really have to have an amazing team behind you. I'm only one man, I'm just the director, you know, I oversee a team, I'm a coach. They're the players, you know, like you said earlier, you know, Tony Clark for the Detroit Tigers or Red Sox, but I'm just the coach, I really am, I'm just the coach, you know, I'm not the player coach Those guys are the player coaches themselves, 'cause every one of them can be a leader down there, but no, the biggest thing is is having that team behind you.

Scott Stanford:

Wait a minute, I thought I was talking to Tony Clark who used to play for the Tigers, no?

Tony Clark:

Same hairdo, totally different.

Scott Stanford:

Yeah. The elephant in the room for a surveillance perspective is that the department is viewed as a non-revenue-generating department, right? So how do you collaborate with the other departments or agencies really just to enhance overall efforts? Is there a collaboration?

Tony Clark:

Oh, definitely. I mean, one of the things that we do is we work a lot with marketing. We do player audits, we do not only good players, but also scam players, players that will come in to work your promotions department, you know, you get so much for your free play, and they'll walk around and do several things, you know, try to strong-arm people off of machines that, you know, are gonna hit within a certain volatility rate. So we work directly with marketing, and that's the biggest thing, 'cause who has the largest budget within any casino there is? That's marketing.

Scott Stanford:

Sure, marketing.

Tony Clark:

That's what they do for a living. They market to the players, they market to everybody. Well, they wanna make sure they're marketing to the right individuals and getting rid of the wrong individuals, so that's where we actually become that cost savings, as well as with the liability, as well. I mean, the fraudulent cases and everything that we can come up with and show reports on, the video tells, you know, a thousand words. They say a picture's a thousand words, video's over a million.

Scott Stanford:

Video, yeah, video tells a lot. Is there an example of a successful collaboration between surveillance and marketing teams to enhance customer satisfaction?

Tony Clark:

Oh, yeah, we had a group that's known throughout the United States, and they are one that would come in and strong-arm on your machine when you know it's gonna hit within a certain amount of time, and we caught on to their platforms, their program, and not only did we 86 them, but we also round-towned them, which is what I call it, kinda blacklisted them throughout the other casinos and stuff in the area and everybody, so, and when you do that, you're actually taking away someone's job, because they actually look at it as a living, they do this for a living.

Scott Stanford:

Absolutely. It wasn't those red hats of 80-plus females that get together to come into the casinos, was it?

Tony Clark:

No, it definitely wasn't. As a matter of fact, you know, we enjoy it when they come in on their bus trip.

Scott Stanford:

Yeah, my mother was a part of that group, I used to tease her all the time that they were getting ready to take over a casino. The thing that amazes me is you talk about strong-arming a slot machine or a video poker game. How much surveillance on their part does it take to know when one of these, you know, one of these, you know, mechanical, right, not dealer-operated, but mechanical, how long does it take to sit there and know when this thing's about to hit?

Tony Clark:

Believe it or not, there's apps that you can get on your phone that would show them, you know, how to do it. There's websites that you can go to, there are groups, and like I said, this isn't just one individual, these are groups of up to 50, 60 people at one time, that will play,

Scott Stanford:

Right.

Tony Clark:

you know, certain games, because they know that there's a certain threshold where it's gonna hit, and they'll come in, and if your expenditure is $300 but the profitability on it is to hit anywhere between 1,000 and 2,000, and you can do it within a matter of hour, two hours, I mean, that's not a bad ROI.

Scott Stanford:

That's just wild to me. And always, the whole concept of you guys knowing, and again, this is just me watching movies, but I know it happens in real life, just knowing and realizing when someone is sitting there how the heck do you guys figure out that somebody's counting cards?

Tony Clark:

Well, that's one of the things where, for me, you have to be able to do it yourself, 'cause if I need a table audited, you have to be able to do it. So basically, we catch cheats by being cheats, you know, I mean, final truth, the best way to catch a cheat is to know what's going on in their head.

Scott Stanford:

Is to , so you gotta, so those are the best guys to hire to come work for you, right?

Tony Clark:

Yeah, those, and like I said, again, the kids that love video games, because if there's something you can put on a computer program that'll get them active and have them count cards, because we don't, you know, I would prefer you to be able to do it on your own without using a computer with analytics, but, you know, if need be, sometimes these kids are faster on the keyboard than what they can be with their brains, so.

Scott Stanford:

And Tony, a lot of the folks on your team, do they come from law enforcement? Or in your case, you didn't really have any experience when you first started, it was just something that came to you. Do most of the folks you bring in now, aside from trying to find these kids who are computer whizzes, do you have to have a background in law enforcement at all?

Tony Clark:

Not for my department, no. What I look for is, gaming experience is always a plus, but computers, technologies. One of the biggest questions I ask is what is your favorite hobby? And if I get the 18-, 19-, 20-year-old kid who wants to break into the industry, and he says, "Well, you know, my favorite hobby is I go home and play video games," you are on the top of my list right now, because they're the most analytical individuals that you'll ever find, and their goal is to be the best and do the best that they can just by watching a screen, and the fact that they can sit and watch a screen for 8, 10, 12 hours, it drives me nuts to do it for more than 20 minutes.

Scott Stanford:

Oh, my god, no, it's amazing. And again, look, I'm a casual card player, once in a while I'll pop in with my $100, and, you know, play some blackjack, and I just, you know, I sit there and I'm like, man, you know, when you have six decks in one of those big black boxes, I could see maybe when you just have the one deck, but when you have six decks coming out, it just, it blows my mind. And even if you can count the cards, I still don't see how you know what's coming out next, that you're not gonna go over or what have you, so it's just incredible. Tony would you recommend a job in hotel casino surveillance to kids, you know, coming out of college?

Tony Clark:

To be honest, that's one of the big, we'll talk about that white elephant, is trying to find qualified individuals who have some computer skills, video game skills, analytical skills, statistics. You get marketing background, you know, I mean, this is a great platform to get into, especially some of you just want to get into the original opening door of a casino, because you never know where it could go from here, because you get to see everything. From this advantage point, I can see everything. You know, maybe someday, marketing would be more of my forte, but in the meantime, I get to see everything that's involved and what everybody does, and you learn every single job within a casino by sitting in the surveillance room.

Scott Stanford:

Unbelievable; and when you have celebrity guests come in, like, I think I saw you guys maybe have Pitbull coming up later in the summer, at Soaring Eagle. Are you guys involved with his surveillance and his protection while he's there, as well?

Tony Clark:

That's part of that weapons detection system that we had brought in, that, you know, we introduced the Evolv. That was one of the biggest things. That actually has two facial recognition cameras on it, too, so if somebody comes in with an item, we know where they went, which direction they traveled, we stop them before they can get into the venue for the most part, but we can utilize that face if they decide to come back into the casino, and go from there. So, yeah, we actually do utilize a lot of that technology.

Scott Stanford:

I love it, I love it. Again, like I said at the top, sounds like such a cool industry to be in. Tony Clark, Director of Surveillance, Saginaw Chippewa Indian tribe, Tony, thanks for spending some time with us, and listen, man, continued success on everything you're doing, and it, you know, you love what you do every day, it's like you don't go to work, right?

Tony Clark:

Hey, and that's just it, you know. If you don't love this, please don't try it. If you get into it and you don't enjoy it, please don't stick around, 'cause you're gonna spend more time with the individuals in your office than you will your families at most times, believe it or not, and it's such a close-knit group that they become a family to you, so, 'cause that's what we actually are. Saginaw Chippewa Indian tribe is the tribe that I work for, but Soaring Eagle Properties, Saganing Eagles Landing, Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort, as well as Soaring Eagle Waterpark.

Scott Stanford:

I love it; if I ever come to the area, I'm gonna throw your name around, all right?

Tony Clark:

Hey, just be careful.

Scott Stanford:

Tony Clark, thank you, my man. Enjoy the rest of the summer, pal. Thanks for spending some time.

Tony Clark:

Thanks so much, Scott, for having me out again, man.

Scott Stanford:

Take care, Tony. Thank you, pal. Well, unfortunately that's all the time we have today on "The Infrastructors." I want you to join us next time for our conversation with the Director of Surveillance for the Angel of the Winds Casino, none other than Derk Boss.